Conversion Therapy

By | August 17, 2019

– Hello, everybody, and welcome
to “Tales from the Closet.” That’s right, it’s spooky. Welcome to our 13th episode. I’m Ally Beardsley, your host. This is a podcast for people
who are in the closet, people who are out of the closet,
people who are near the closet. If you’re currently
in the closet, we’re here to keep you company. And we will be discussing
coming out, how we did it. And living well, how we do it. That was a brand
new intro for me. It was really pieced together. – It was good. – If you’re listening to
this in it’s podcast form, know that there is also a video. So you too could know, how
many candles I’m holding. Spoiler alert, it’s only 12. We couldn’t find
the 13th candle. Annie said, maybe
it’s the light within. And I would like for us
to all sit with that. Let’s pray. No, just kidding. Let’s meet our guests. I’m very excited. We have three
amazing guests today. Who are you? What do you like to do? What are you pronouns? Let’s start with you, Annie. – Cool, my name
is Annie Paradis. My pronouns are she, her. I started jogging again,
which has been a journey cause I haven’t jogged in a while. And yeah, I do comedy. – Nice. – Yeah. – So when you say,
jog, you’re like, I’m not pushing myself to run. I’m just going to go out. I’m going to briskly jog. – I’m going to ease into it. I set a two-minute timer. I jog for two minutes,
I walk for two minutes, I come back in. – Ooh, that’s nice. – Cause I broke
my foot last year, so I’ve been trying to
come back to my body. – I feel like that honestly
says a lot about me. Because, I think I
would do the same thing, but I would tell
people that I run. – Yeah. – I think I just– That’s why I said jogging. I’m not running– – It was very honest of you. – –but I’m jogging. – I’d be like, yeah, I
started running again. And in my mind, I know
I’m kind of jogging for a couple of minutes
and then I’m walking. – But it’s a quick walk. I keep the music up-tempo– – Ooh, yeah. – –so everything is there. Yeah that’s been a new
development for me. – Love it. – Yeah. – How do you identify– – Oh, on the spectrum? – Yeah, on the Kinsey scale. [LAUGHTER] – On the Kinsey scale. – (SARCASTICALLY) Give us
a number, now, one to six. – I’m like, four, I don’t know. – I’m kidding. – I’m queer. I say– it’s been,
recently, bisexual. I thought I was gay,
for like five years. – Ooh. – It’s been a new,
coming-back-out, again. – Fun. – I just don’t like
the phrase bisexual. It feels– – That’s interesting. – Which, I’m sure will get me– will get– I don’t know. – We absolutely have
to talk about that. – Yeah. I just feel like it
connotates like– I mean, I feel like– if you watch the show,
The Bisexual, on Hulu, she talks about it. Which, I really
recommend that show. She’s a lesbian, and then she
realizes she’s a bisexual. – Wow. – And so, I just feel like
it’s very, like, Tila Tequila. And it’s, like, these
hot girls just making out on the weekends. And I’m, like, not a
hugely sexual person. I mean, just the
phrase, bisexual, has the word, sexual, in it. – Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah. – So it’s been an
interesting journey to be– in my own, internalized– I think there’s a word for it. Not homophobia, but like bio– – Biphobia. – Yeah, where I’ve
been like, oh, I didn’t think that was real. – Totally, yeah. You see, like, zero
bisexual men growing up. – Yeah. – All you see are,
like, you know, Pepsi-sponsored
kisses at the VMA’s. Between, like, Madonna and
fucking Brittney Spears. – Exactly. – And you’re like, oh, cool. That’s bisexuality, great. – Yeah. – Yeah. – Yeah, so it’s
been kind of weird. I feel like– yeah, I do
feel like I’ve come out. Cause a lot of my friends– I was in Philly– they
all thought of me as gay. And now that I’ve
dated a few guys out here it’s like, a lot
of my friends are like, but you’re gay. And I’m like, I don’t know. – Oh I love that’s a
really good sting move. – That’s very interesting. – Yeah, yeah. – Also Tila Tequila. – Yeah, yeah. – Never forget. – Rest in peace. – No. – Huge Trump support. No, sorry. [LAUGHTER] – Sorry, rest in
peace in my book. – Crazy. All right, Liza. Who are you? – I’m Liza. Hi. My pronouns are they, them. And what else? Oh, I am a musician. Yeah, oh, I identify as queer. – Cool. – Yeah. But that’s really interesting. I used to identify more as gay. And I still think
about this a lot. How like, with all of these
different gender identities and like, non-binary
being such a thing, identifying in a way that’s
binary, how does that feel? – Yeah. – I guess we’re
going down the line, but I want to talk about that. – Yes, totally. – Because that’s
kind of Interesting. – Yeah, because it’s like, I
also identify as non-binary. And if I’m like, I’m gay, you
know, it’s like, am I gay? – Right. – I mean, it’s so dependent
on a check the box gender. – Yeah. – But yeah, I also
switched to queer. It feels more inclusive. But also, it’s close, but
it’s not exactly what I want. – Right, yeah. – Because it fills
expectations, I think. You know what I mean. There’s no room. There’s no room for
you to be, in any way, different than
that binary system. – Yeah. – It’s just like,
so frustrating. – And I feel like
when I first came out I was like, (WITH
EMPHASIS) I’m gay. – Oh, for sure. – Like it was so nice to be
able to claim a very binary, gay because it was fighting
back against a very heteronormative reality. It was like, I’m not
like you, I’m gay. Now, I’m so comfortable. And like, oh, I am gay. I don’t need to
scream that anymore, and I can make space
for other people. – Yeah. – Yeah. – Totally. – Yeah. – Yeah. – Great. – And who are you? – I’m David, David Craig. My pronouns are he, him. And I identify as a gay
male, a married gay male. Which, I guess,
kind of illustrates that that’s what I
currently identify as. Just even thinking
out loud, right now, from what we’re
all talking about, it’s like there is this idea– like how you said– when you come out,
it’s like you’re bouncing against the
heteronormative patriarchy of society. And I think that’s like a
jumping off point for queer people. Where, we then get
to learn who we are. Because so many
people start to get– you know, if you’re born in
a heteronormative society, and you identify
as a heterosexual, you can start learning
yourself, very young. I think for us, or at least,
I can speak for myself. It took me a very long
time to even start to know who I was as
a person after that. And I think that that’s what
is interesting about all of the modern discussions,
and us getting to be a part of this society. It’s like, as soon as we do
have our coming out moment, we get to then learn. You know? – Yes. – Yeah. – Who we are, and learn
who everybody else is. – Because you tuck so much of
yourself away to be accepted. And so you spend
these formative years, middle school, high school,
knowing this isn’t acceptable. And what is? There’s just so much
of you that you’re like, don’t think about that. Don’t even touch it. – You’re literally
in survival mode– – Just get through, yes. – –until you, you know, you
state, also I do pottery. [LAUGHTER] – You got to get it in. – We were all giving a
simple fact about ourselves. – You got it. – You’re damn fun. I am fun. – I am fun. I don’t just do this. – I am fun. – No, but– you know, I’ve
been thinking a lot about that. Especially, being married and
always identifying as gay, it is– and always being in
long-term relationships, there’s always been this–
are we just starting this discussion? – Yes, please. – OK. You know, I feel
like there’s always this place where even
us as queer people, put ourselves in boxes
immediately after that. We don’t let ourselves
learn after that. And so I think it’s actually
like a really beautiful place that we’re all in, in
this current society. Where we actually get to have
these discussions with one another in Starbucks. Order our
identification, you know? – Yes, absolutely. – Yeah, totally. – Yeah, yeah, yeah. – I mean, it’s like–
because I feel like, with my first girlfriend,
she was out, she was gay, and she had had many
female partners. And I was still,
just like, yeah, I think I’m queer and bisexual. I wasn’t sure. But it was so interesting that
when I’m out with you, I’m gay. Like if someone’s going
to see me with you, I’m not queer or bisexual. I’m gay because I’m
with another woman. And then now I’m
playing into your– and if it’s someone that’s
supportive of that or whatever, then it’s like, OK, I’m your
lesbian friend in this context, cause I’m with my girlfriend. But like, I’m not going
to get into the nuances with you of like, well, I’m
still attracted to guys. You can’t exist in
that multiple space. – Yeah. – At least, for me. – Very interesting. – And then how does it feel when
you’re out on a date with, say, a cis-man– or, like, a man? Just– – Well it feels really– because I’ve been thinking
about it this past year. The idea of not
feeling gay enough, and not feeling straight enough. And I even do that with
my Instagram stuff. So if I meet a girl I like,
I’m like, I hope my Instagram– I hope she can tell I’m gay. I hope she can tell that I
don’t want to just be friends. But then if I meet
a guy, I’m like, I hope it’s not too “dikey.” You know What I mean? – Wow, yeah, yeah. – I’ll be like curating it. And I’m like why should I? Ideally, I would
like to date someone that is chill with whatever. – Yes. – But I can see,
if you’re coming in and you’re just meeting
someone off the top and you’re not used to that,
it’s like, I don’t know. – Yeah. – Woah. – There’s so much nuance. I really relate to
that with gender. – Yeah. – I don’t really feel
like a woman or a man. And when I’m with a bunch
of cis-hetero-women, I feel so fucking
awkward, still. And I’m almost 29 years old. And I still can’t
figure that out. And then, a group
of guys, same thing. It’s like where do I– like, how do I fit into this? What are you thinking of
me when you look at me? And all of this fear
can like– can– come up there. – Yeah. – Yes. – But I totally relate to that. – And it’s like, what would it
be like to be in a place where I just don’t– where I fully don’t care. You know? – Right, yeah. – And getting in– and I’m
like, there are people that don’t care. – Yes. [LAUGHTER] – Therapy, man. – Exactly. I would say that’s
absolutely where I’ve started to find my footing. – Yeah. – Yeah. – It is so strange,
the heaviness that we put on gender, as this
concrete, important thing that dictates how we act. And when you’re outside of
that you’re kind of like, what? It almost feels like
you don’t have– like gravity doesn’t apply. Like, some huge thing. Like, when you’re with a
bunch of guys and everyone starts punching each other,
but no one punches you. And you’re like– – (SARCASTICALLY) do, do that. [LAUGHTER] – Every single cis-man
punches another cis-man. It’s a greeting. No, but when moments like
that happen, and you’re like, I don’t want to be punched. But is that what should happen? – Sometimes, do you
want to punched, though? – I feel like I want, like a– – Cause I feel that. – I guess, yes. I don’t know. That’s such a weird thing. To want to be punched. [LAUGHTER] – Do you want us to
punch you right now? – I don’t literally but– – I think I just
want to hang out with people who don’t punch. – I tihnk that that’s
what that’s about. – I gender identify as
someone who doesn’t jokingly punch people they like. – Yeah. – Yeah. – No, but I think sometimes
I’m attracted to like the– like, being “bro-ey.” Whatever that could be. And it’s like this
overcompensation thing, I think. You know? – Yeah. – Yeah. – It sometimes comes out. And it’s like,
trying to stay away from picking up on all
of this toxic masculinity and expressing my
own masculinity. – Yes, absolutely. – Yeah, anyway. – Well it’s because we
also have to separate the idea of what
gender means and what cultural experience means,
and those sort of things. – Yeah. – As a queer person,
you’re also having to figure yourself out
while also figuring out everyone else. When you’re growing
up in sort of a– you know, I grew up
in Cleveland, Ohio, and everybody’s in a suburb. And it was very heteronormative. Everything was
soccer, wrestling, all of those beautiful sports. [LAUGHTER] No, but you also
have to separate– and girls didn’t
do those things. So it was like, and boy– you know, I took gymnastics
when I was younger because I loved it. – Awe. – But I never viewed it as
being a male, female thing, until somebody told me it was. – Yeah, absolutely. – Totally. – Yeah. – I was just thinking about
what you guys were saying about being with the bros. And I feel like when I
came out, a lot of my– my brother is much more
supportive and aware of stuff now, than he was 10 years
ago when I came out. But I feel like my brother and
a lot of my straight guy friends would talk about women
with me in a way where I was uncomfortable. – Yes. – We were walking one
time and my friend was commenting on a
girl’s ass, to me. So there’s so many levels here. Because you’re trying
to connect with me, and you’re trying
to acknowledge me. So thank you, but I
don’t want to talk about her body in that way. – I was a server at a restaurant
and all the men that I worked with, when they
found out I was gay, then I was given this like slimy
secret handshake into the world of that kind of toxic
masculinity of just, like– oh, fucking table two’s
so fucking hot. And it’s just the
most grotesque version of predatory male behavior
was, like, now– like, hey, do you want to join us? And it was, like, no. I’m still a feminist. [LAUGHTER] I was like, what? – How did they treat
you prior to that? Because that’s actually– if
you’re now showing your true self, and they now know
who you are, what– – Super polite, in the most
scary, turn-on-a-dime way. Incredibly polite
and respectful. And then it was
like, oh, wait, what? Like, you hooked up with her. That’s so high five. And I’m high-fiving
about hooking up with someone, sharing a moment? – And you’re like the– yeah. – What the kind of
of transactional, fucking sexuality it was like. – Especially, if it’s the
type of guy, at least, I don’t know for you, but
for me, that were bullying me in high school. Now I’m getting a
high five from you. It’s like what do I do? [LAUGHS] – Yeah, there’s a
really funny meme. I forget where I saw it,
but it was like, fucking– Honestly– I didn’t have
to tell you was I meme. I could have said
there was an article. [LAUGHS] And I didn’t do that. And it was a meme. But it was talking about
when someone includes sexism in the list of things that have
changed for them since starting T. It was like when
people start testosterone, and they’re like,
yeah, it’s so crazy. I’m growing hair. I fucking see chicks everywhere,
and I’m fucking so horny. – Yeah, you’re like– – And you’re like, wait, what? Really? – What has happened? [LAUGHS] – That made me
laugh because I feel like I have some friends
who have started T. And it gets into that
zone where you’re like, I don’t know if this
hormone has done that for you, or if you’re just cashing in
on something really insidious. – Interesting, yeah. – Well, that’s the show. [LAUGHTER] – We’re going to end
on that inward note. – We all disassociate from this. – I think we were all
just literally thinking about tea for a minute. – Yeah– [INTERPOSING VOICES] – I thought you meant
tea like, what’s the tea? [LAUGHTER] Like, what’s going on? Let’s spill tea. – When you start spilling tea. – And I was like,
honestly, yeah, when you start gossiping a
lot, you’re going to change. [LAUGHTER] – And I literally went
to tea, drinking tea. – And you could see
that in our eyes. And you said, let me back track. – So it was little
bit about everyone. [LAUGHTER] – Yeah, so usually on this
show, we talk a little bit about how did you come out? What was that like? – Yeah, I feel like, for
me, it was always a knowing, but it wasn’t until later on. I came out around 19,
but I didn’t date a woman until I was 24. But when I was four or five,
my brain, literally, was like, I was hooking up with this girl. I was making out
with my neighbor. But I feel like that, to
me, doesn’t necessarily– I feel like a lot of kids
do that across the board. I was thinking about it
in the car ride here. I was like, oh,
we played a game, and we called it wedding night. [LAUGHS] And that was the game. And I always played the husband. So I was like, yeah,
I’m probably gay. I was like, if I’m
choosing to be the– – I think we played
game as well. – And we would go
and just make out. And it was wedding night. And I remember
knowing I did that. And then I was six or
seven, and so it’s mid ’90s. And the TV Guide channel
would play stuff. It would be what
was coming on next, but there would always
be E News or something. And it was Ellen’s
old girlfriend, so it wasn’t Portia. And it was– – Anne Heche? – Yeah. – Yeah, the tiny blonde? Yeah, and I think Ellen had
just come out with or something. And my dad was in the kitchen. My dad said something that
was very negative about it. And I grew up in a
Catholic, Republican house. And I was a six-year-old. I was like, I’ll
become a nun then. I remember just being like– – Oh! Aw, man. – –I’m going to be a nun. And so from ages,
six to eight, I would sit at the dinner table. And then my brain be like,
I’m going to miss you guys. – Oh, my! [LAUGHTER] – Oh, man. I had a very similar experience. – Really? – I remember at a very young
age thinking, OK, you’re most, certainly, definitely,
probably 100% gay. [LAUGHTER] But it’s OK because you
don’t have to tell anyone. No one’s going to know. You’re going to find a nice
guy, and live your life, and it’ll be fine. You’ll be fine. You’ll be happy. – As a kid, you’re thinking– – As a kid, I was
like, it’s fine. No one has to know about this. – And it’s crazy that happens
without talking to any– the way we program that. You weren’t talking to
other six, seven-year-olds, you know what I mean? – You’re right. – Yeah, it’s like
recognizing it, and then shutting
it down immediately. – Yeah, well, because
when you recognize, you’re like this is bad. This is the worst news I
could possibly get– me? Oh, God. – Totally, and I was just
like I would rather become– I was like, the monastery
is where I’ll go. And I won’t hurt you guys. I remember it was a thought. And then I told my mom when
I’m was around 10 or something. And my mom was like,
it’s just a phase. Don’t think about it. And so then I
remember being like, I’m not going to be straight. I think I thought I’ll
deal with this later. I’ll just deal with this. It was almost like, maybe I’ll
be gay later or something. – Did you date a lot like
in that middle school way or high school way? – I was so asexual. I had my first kiss at 19. And then in college, I
did nothing with anybody. And even me coming out
as queer at 19 in college was because I was
reading Queer Theory. – There it is. – I went to art
school, so I was like– – It was hip. – Oh, the other,
the other– yes. So even that was
how I came into it. – Totally, absolutely the same. I was like, I’m not
attracted to anyone because it was just like,
well, I’m not attracted to men, and that would be
my only option. And that means I have
no sexual desire at all. And I went to a super
Christian college. And I did the thing where
I was like, gay people are terrifying. I cannot be near any of them
because then that would show that maybe I am gay. And then I did a hard switch
into actually I’m an ally, and did the same thing
where I’m reading everything about queer people on
Reddit about queer people. Like, I just needed
to understand them a little bit more. – Oh, yeah, I worked
for a queer circus. I was not dating a girl. – Haven’t we all? [LAUGHS] – Is it too late to change
the name of this podcast? – Queer Circus? Oh, that’s pretty great. – I was just like, I’m
hanging out with you guys, but I don’t know. It’s called Circus Amok. It’s in New York, and
I highly recommend it. – Wow! – It’s this woman, Jennifer
Miller, she’s a bearded– she used to do
Coney Island stuff. She’s a bearded woman. And it’s a circus that does– my parents were just like,
what are we paying for? It was basically like
a political circus. So they would do a circus
about stop and frisk. – Wow. – We had to hold hands, and
we’d go through the Boroughs. – Wow! – And I was a roustabout,
so I helped the circus. But I was like, yeah,
but I’m not gay. – Oh my God. – I have a question. Being in this queer thing,
circus thing, and Queer Theory, and saying, I’m not gay, did
you feel other people around you being like, oh,
she’s totally gay. It’s just a matter of time. And was that thing? – I really think some
of my close friends and my teacher, even,
was just like, cool, just come to this party then. No one ever said
anything to me, but I think it was very
knowing that she just has to meet the right lady. Like that kind of– but
no one was ever like, you can’t say that stuff,
or you aren’t that. It was almost like people
who knew it about me were just like, take your time. The circus has been
around for a while, so– I love just like
circus took care of me. – It’s so casual at this point. [LAUGHS] – But it’s lot of
older gays and queer. So I feel like they
created a space where I could hang out and talk. I kind of felt calm about it. I was like, it’s going to
happen when it needs to happen. – That’s cool. I think I asked that
question because, for me, I would have been so terrified
that I’d been found out or something. – That was when the Occupy
Wall Street was like– And I was living in York, so I
just was like, fuck everyone. So I think it was like
a nice political place– – That’s awesome. – –to be in. And I even came
out to my parents, but I hadn’t dated a girl yet. So I came out at 19. – Oh my God! I came out to my parents, and
hadn’t even touched someone that I was interested in. Yeah, I was just like, this
is absolutely true for me. And I need to tell you. – How did your parents respond? – So I came out to my mom. And she called me
to say, I think your brother might be gay. I said, I think I might be gay. – Oh my gosh. – And she went, oh. [LAUGHS] So she wasn’t expecting that. But it’s true, 100% of
her children are gay. My brother and I are both gay. And she definitely prioritizes
us and her relationship to us, which is
really beautiful. So it’s helped with
our relationship. But at first, she was
just like, it is wrong. And the Bible says it’s wrong. And I wish I could
rewrite the Bible for you. That’s as much as
she could give me. – I literally did the exact same
sort of scenario with my mother where we were sitting down. It was Christmas,
and I was like, I’m going to tell her over
Christmas because I need to do it in person. I had a boyfriend at that
point for a year and a half. – Wow. – And she thought
he was my roommate– – Of course. – –as one does– a very close roommate. But we were sitting down, and
she was talking about my uncle, and how my uncle hated my
cousin’s boyfriend, and this and that, and this and that. And I was like, wow, I wonder
what Uncle Jerry thinks of me. And she goes, well, your
uncle thinks you’re gay. And I go, oh, I am. And so I just literally
blurted it out to her. And it was the wrong way
because it took six hours to convince her
that I wasn’t joking because she kept
going like, oh, David, that was just such a good joke. I was like, no, like, no – Oh, no! – It took literally, in a
chair, starting at 11:00 PM till 5:00 in the
morning, literally being like, all right,
OK, he is my boyfriend. We’ve been living
together for a year. This is all that. And than she hid herself in
the bathroom for quite a while. But it was nearly
the same thing. We’re like, oh, your
uncle thinks you’re gay. And I’m like, yep, I am. – Because your tone comes out,
and you’re just like, yep, I am. – Well, because
I was so prepared to have the conversation
over that 10 days that I was home that
I was just like, oh, this is my only moment to do it. – Yes. – Yeah. – Boom! Here it is. And actually ripping
off the Band-Aid was the best part ever. Because then for
those six hours, I was just like I could have
a fucking bourbon right now. Just sit back and let
her peddle this out. But it was a rough one. – How did you tell your parents? – I just think they
were visiting me. I think they came for a circus. I think at the circus. [LAUGHTER] I think we were doing– – Please just tell us
you’re still in this circus. – I think I was on stilts. I think had a
stilt-walking show. But we were in the car. I think we’re in New York
because they came up. And I think we we’re
talking about gay rights. I think that came up in the
car, but I probably started it. My parents aren’t the type to
be talking about that casually. They both were in the Navy. So military is really in there. – A little don’t ask,
don’t tell sprinkles. – Yes, and it’s so
funny because I’m fucking wearing these
boots all the time. I did AmeriCorps,
which is a military– I can’t get away. But I brought it up. And I was like, yeah, I’m queer. And my dad was
like, well, I just don’t think they
should get married. They’ve come around. – Immediately? – Yeah, my dad was just like– I think they didn’t know
how to respond to it. And I think they didn’t really
think I was because also I’m– And I’m sure you guys are
aware of this in queer culture, it’s like, you don’t look it. Like, I don’t look gay
to you or whatever. – Yeah, and I have that
issue now with non-binary. I feel like I’m slated to
get top surgery sometime in the next few months. – Oh, yeah, awesome. – And there’s so much
in my mind that I’m deferring until I get
that, just to be like, oh, now, I look trans. You could see me
without a shirt on. And now we’re starting– – But it’s like I’m– like now you can take me out. – I am currently non-binary. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, this kind of like
needing to adapt how you look to be taken seriously. – Exactly, I think my
parents were just like– and also, after that, I
was aggressive about it. And they’ve come around
in their own ways, but I mean I’m not super
close with them anyways. So they don’t care within
the realm they don’t care. It’s like whatever to
them, but at the same time, I don’t give them space to care. – Yeah, that’s
really interesting. You don’t expect that from them. – Yeah, yeah. My dad remarried a woman
that does LGBTQ rights for people in Venezuela. So he’s definitely much
more versed in it now. And my mom, who lives
in Saudi Arabia, she works for the government. It’s a whole thing. – I love your parents. I love where your parents live. [LAUGHTER] – They’re wonderful people. [LAUGHTER] I love them. I love them. An interesting
journey with them. – Coming out to both at the
same time sounds crazy to me. I don’t know. Are you equally close
with both of them? – I would say I’m
closer with my mom. And my mom’s always just been– and I mean this is
the kindest way– she’s just sort of doesn’t
have strong opinions. At the time, I think she was– I was thinking about the
best way to phrase it. I think they said what they
thought they should say. I don’t think the way they
felt about gay, queer stuff was how they truly felt. I
think they’re just like, we’re both from small towns. We both joined the Navy at 18. This is how I should react. – Yes, well, I
bet, up until then, gay rights had always been a
topic that didn’t necessarily affect them. So they had their sound bite
answers to anything gay. And then you were like,
actually, it does affect you. I am queer. And they were just like,
this is all we have. – Totally. – Gay people
shouldn’t get married. – I think what I’ve
started realizing is that the ability
to not have to learn after a certain point
in life, and the comfort that that gives to people. And I think there is a
certain element where, being a queer person,
you feel something deep down inside of you that has
to learn more about yourself. I think that there’s a part
of that that’s a gift for us because we do continuously
have to look inside ourselves and
question who we are. where there is a
certain limit if you’re born into a certain part of
the world or a certain society where you just
immediately fit in. That the second you’re
out of high school or higher learning
education, and you’re in your everyday life
where you’re going to work. You’re coming home. You’re doing the same
thing over and over, you get comfortable
with no change. That when change does
come, it’s suddenly a reflection of who you are,
rather than going like, oh, I can learn something new. It’s like up until I moved out
of Ohio and went to New York, I never questioned
anything about myself. I didn’t question
anything about history. I only had the containment
of what I learned in school, and what I learned
from my parents. But I never went,
why does this happen? And because I had to learn
something about myself immediately out
of that, I started questioning other things,
and I started growing up, and I started learning. And I think people get stuck
in those sorts of things. – Totally. – And then they take
it on themselves. – Yeah, it’s part of
being in a majority too. The comfort of
being in a majority, you don’t necessarily have
to think about things. And when you’re
in a minority, you need to figure out
what is up with you, figure out how you fit into
this when you are so different. – Totally, when it’s
constantly changing, I’m just thinking about
how does it feel to know what will you feel like
after your surgery? That’s beautiful. That’s gorgeous. – Yeah. – And it definitely
feels like the beginning of a long journey. I don’t know if you feel the
same way with gender identity. I definitely don’t have it yet. I haven’t found that peace
yet in that specific way, but I’m definitely
going to keep trying. And there are more
tools that I’m finding, and that’s really cool. – It’s amazing. – And how did you come out? Did you have a big moment? Were you in the circus? – Yes, no, I wasn’t in
the circus, at least, no organized circus. But similar to you, actually,
I was in a relationship. Basically, when I came out
to myself concretely, not the 7-year-old version,
but when I was like, OK, this is something that
you definitely need to start facing, and kind
of shed some of that shame, and just started accepting
myself, it became a lot easier. – I have a question. How did you go from 7-year-old,
oh, no, this is bad, to I am queer and it’s OK. What were some of the
things that helped? – I think a lot. But there’s the quickest thing
I can think of right now, the turning point was when I
was faced with someone where I knew I would not be rejected. – You just said, OK, yeah. – Yeah, yeah, so I had this
friend that was out and gay. And I became aware
that they were into me. And they were my
really good friend. I was like, OK, I
can make this work. [LAUGHTER] – I think that’s
how it was for me. It was like, OK, this
seems like a good setting. [LAUGHTER] – Right, I feel safe. I know I’m not going
to be rejected. Lets do this. And then we fell in love,
and were together for a year. And along that, I came out to
my older sister like randomly. I was visiting her to
chop all my hair off because I live in
a different town. So I was visiting her, getting
my first Teagan and Sarah haircut. [LAUGHTER] And I randomly came out to her. I just started crying. And she was like, oh my god,
you’re pregnant, aren’t you? I was like, no. [LAUGHTER] I’m gay or whatever. And she was like,
well, let’s just call mom and tell her right now. Let’s just do it. I’m here with you. I’ll help you. I don’t know when I would
have come out to my parents without my older sister. We put her on speaker phone. And my mom was
like, yeah, I know. – What! Oh my God! – Not that it was easy. It was really challenging. And I think she had a delayed
reaction to the whole thing, but it was pretty obvious. But denial can be a thing. – That happens
where it’s obvious, but then it’s still them
hearing the confirmation. You might get a totally, like
you said, a delayed reaction. – Absolutely, yeah, yeah. – Also, can I just
say, the I know thing– and I don’t know if we’ve
talked about this previously, but the I know thing, if
somebody is coming out, you should ask
them how they feel, rather than revealing your
own personal thing immediately after that. Maybe just say, how
are you doing today? – Tell me everything. I’m gay. Oh, tell me everything hug. – That was also my biggest fear. – Yes. – Everybody knows! – It’s so witch hunting! – Then it becomes immediately
about the person you’re telling rather than it being– we struggle so much with the
coming out aspect of our life. Let it be our thing. – Yes, that’s true. I never thought of it that way. – It was so hard. – It’s, for me, a little
bit of validation, that I’m like, oh,
you thought I– cool. Because, for me, I’m
just like, nobody knows. And then I say to my friends,
sometimes they’re like, no, you’re pretty obvious. And I’m like, OK. But I never thought
that way where it does take it away
from the person that needs to just be heard. Now, I’m hearing your
experience of my gayness instead of what my
actual experience is. – Let us ask you if you knew. Let us go, did you know? – You’re like, mom, and you’re
shaking and reading a letter. And she’s like, golden! – You’ve never had
sex with a woman! – Oh, man. All right, well, we are
going to move right along. Each episode, we
have a haunted word. And today, our haunted word
is, conversion therapy. [THUNDER] [LAUGHTER] There it it. I didn’t give them
enough time, honestly. Shout out to
everyone doing sound. Thank you. The thunder– they say when
it’s really far away, you count. [INTERPOSING VOICES] In a way, I like that
it was so muffled. Because when we have
really triggering words, and then like a whole big
sound effect come out. But, yeah, conversion therapy,
what do you guys think? This is just a
free for all talk. I know you had a
movie that you made. – Yeah I worked on a film
called, Boy Race, that came out last year. And then we had a subsequent
podcast that came along with it called, Unerased, which
was a four part podcast that really delve into the
deep down history of how conversion therapy came about. And it’s horrible. It’s a bad practice. And currently, we have 16
states in the country that illlegalized secular
conversion therapy for teens, but working on hopefully
a national elimination at some point. – Yes. – Wow. – Yeah, I think definitely so
many people think that that’s a thing of the past– the DSM-5, Now, it’s no
longer listed in there. And maybe with the DSM-4
actually, it was taken out. Something that I
think about is people who talk about the DSM-5
and the psychological, maybe more bookish side of things,
just being like, oh, good, conversion therapy has
been taken out of that. But the people using conversion
therapy, I feel like, are not necessarily looking
in psychological texts. – Well, because it’s not
a physical thing anymore. Conversion therapy, as
most people know it, was this archaic process with
lobotomies and hospitalization. And so you could see the
physical manifestation of it where I think it’s
actually a lot worse now than it was before because
it’s all brain work. – Tell me more about
that because I’m still thinking about shock therapy. That’s more of
thing of the past? – There is versions
that are physical. Obviously, there’s nothing
like a lobotomy anymore that’s performed, but they
do do physical elements, but conversion therapy, for the
most part, as it shows itself in the modern day, is much more
of a mental therapy practice where it’s actually
being performed by trained therapists. And it’s not even just
like a pray the gay away kind of thing. They use practices
that they use in AA. And they use psycho
analysis and psychotherapies to really get in to
these kids’ heads to try to manufacture a
different sort of being. – Wow. – Mind your own business. That’s how I feel. I’m just like, why are you
spending so much time with– [LAUGHS] – Everybody, the
conversation around hormones, I feel like the big
line that I hear is, they’re pumping younger and
younger kids full of hormones. And how can we do this to kids? Kids are transitioning so young. And it’s like, one,
we’re not pumping any kids full of hormones. They’re put on hormone
blockers for a long time. They actually have
less hormones. Like, literally, read a book. But then the other side
of it, is like, we’re doing to young, religious kids? Like getting in their
head in this way. Having grown up in the
church, I definitely– – What kind of church? – It was electric
guitar Christianity. – Nice. – Yeah, and actually,
this weekend was so crazy because I– so I grew up going to
church camp every summer. And there was a big
component of anti-gay, pray the gay away,
this is wrong, here are the verses to tell
you that this is a perversion, and don’t do it. And I went to this
camp every summer. And then this weekend, I went
to a wedding with my sweetie. And we stayed in a cabin
down the street from the camp that I grew up going to. And truly, the most
it gets better moment, passed that camp. And was like, what the fuck? That is where I went to
church camp every summer. And pulled into our
gorgeous cabin, and setup, and popped a bottle
of wine, and hung out with all of our queer friends. Just got dressed up together. And we were in like, a
John Waters-themes room where they had every movie
of his on DVD and a TV on the ceiling above the bed. It was just like queer heaven. But, yeah it’s just
like, rewind the clock to when I was sitting
in one of those pews, and people are telling me, man
should not lay down with a man. – I was just thinking
in terms of like– I don’t know about
you guys, but I’ve lived in a major city since 18. I left, and I lived in New
York, and Philly, and here. I’m from Virginia, so it’s like
I forget the context there. And I don’t really
ever go back there. I’ve gone back a couple times. And I used to teach
in rural Virginia. It’s in Central Virginia–
this writer’s camp. It’s really cool–
young writer’s workshop. – Hey, nice. – But there’s a
Walmart that you’d have to go to get anything. When I just came out, I did
the undercut, the signifier. – You got to get the
flags up somehow. – Yeah, I was like, undercut
and one dangly earring. And I just remember going
at Walmart and being like, oh, I shouldn’t go
here alone, which is so weird because I’ve been
living New York for five years. And you just forget how it’s so
still potent in all those areas when you’re not in it anymore. – We did a research
trip down to Arkansas to meet the memoirs writer’s
family in the church and everything. And I distinctly
remember because I was so comfortable with
myself at that moment. And I was with the people
I love and I work with. And like I felt like I
do when I’m wherever. And we were about
to go to the church, and I come down in my
really skinny jeans. And I had white Toms on
and a tucked in shirt to my skinny jeans. And I just remember
them looking at me before we went to the church. And later, our director
literally went, I was going to tell you, but
you dressed completely different from everybody else. But I didn’t want to
talk to you about it because you felt so comfortable. But I didn’t even
realize at that moment I was signifying everything. – Good! Good for you for feeling
so calm and confident. – But it is that point where
you have your comfort zone. But I wonder if I was
down there by myself, had I been there
by myself, would I have brought a pair
of khakis and Dockers? – Yeah, exactly. – I don’t know. – Well, it could be
like a safety issue. – Yeah, that’s crazy
to think about. I guess we’re so sequestered
in our gorgeous metropolises. And we kind of forget what it’s
like to be in these farm towns where everyone is pretty
hostile to gay people, still. It’s crazy. – Even in Philly, where I
was living last five years, there’s the gayborhood,
which is amazing. And you can be out and
have fun and everything. But South Philly, where it’s
Italian, Irish, old family. I wouldn’t ever want to hold
my ex-girlfriend’s hand there because I was just like,
it’s not safe here. And it was across
from her house was where, after Trump got
elected, that someone did a giant swastika. And you’re just sort of like,
oh, even though I’m in a city, that all my– And I went back to Philly
a couple weeks ago. And, for me,
Philly’s a lot gayer than L.A. in terms of women. Out here, I’m like, I
can’t tell if you’re just dressed really cool. [LAUGHTER] I was like those wide-legged
pants are microagression because I don’t know. [LAUGHTER] But you never know about safety. – How do we push that? It feels like maybe
we should be more out. We should be holding hands. But then do you have
to put your life on the line for visibility? That shouldn’t be the trade off
danger to hold someone’s hand. – I think just by continuing to
exist, we’re doing something. So many times when I
go back home, I’ll– – Where are you from? – I’m from outside of Toronto. And I usually flying
in to Detroit. And then there’s a drive. And if I make a
stop somewhere, I’m, all of a sudden, like,
same as we’re all saying, all of a sudden,
aware of how I look. And I never think about that. I’m like, oh. Like, whoa, people are
probably looking at me, thinking I’m a total
misfit, freak, or something. It’s that intensive
in that area. But hopefully, them just seeing
me does something for them. Just buying my chips or
whatever at the gas station. Hopefully, it does
something– just existing. – Just existing
and moving around. – Not that we shouldn’t
be active, but– – No, totally. – But there are different
speeds that you can click into. And just existing is a speed. You’re fine. – Just like continuing
to be queer. – Yeah, absolutely. – That’s for sure. – OK, cool. Well, we’re going to move
right into questions. I hope you guys are ready. This first question is
no name, but here we go. Hi, my question is about
reclaiming identities. I technically fit into
the label, lesbian, but I feel uncomfortable
identifying myself this way because the only times
I heard it growing up were A, as an insult because I
was not traditionally feminine, or B in a highly sexualized way. What are some ways
you found to be more comfortable with or
reclaimed labels/slurs? Do you have to? Thank you, love the show. – Really good question. – That’s very nice. – Great question. I relate to the word
lesbian as a sexual word. It feels like when I
tell you what I am, I’m telling you who I fuck. And I don’t really want to talk. I’m very private. I don’t like PDA. I’m a very private person in
that way, but it is who I am. I feel like, for me, it was
like finding friends, finding people, having queer
female friends changing because I was like, I’m
not trying to date you. I had my gay guy
friends for a while. And I was like,
cool, this is fun. This is great, but
it’s we can’t fully connect on what it is to
be a woman and be queer. And I feel like, for me,
having the friends help me claim that word
more because we’re hanging out as a group without
there any– it’s not dating. There’s nothing sexual. These are just my friends. And I can find that word
better without there being the pressure of sex. – The word, lesbian. – Yeah. – And I think, going along
that too, is a huge element is always– because when you do
get oh, you’re gay, the immediate
reaction is to think about your sex life
or your sexuality, rather than reminding yourself. And I always have to do that. For instance, like
on Breakdown, anytime you see the first thing
that they say anything about a character is gay. And you’re like,
but that doesn’t refer to anything that will help
me learn who this person it. It literally, is
just telling me you want somebody who holds
their hand a certain way. And I think there’s a huge
element in reminding yourself. And I always have to remind
myself the other things I do. If somebody goes,
oh, you’re a gay man. It’s like, oh, right,
I have two dogs. I have a husband. I go to ceramics. [LAUGHTER] – I am fun. – I am fun. – I am. – The things that
make me special that aren’t about when I was
19 years old and came out. – And I think there is
something else going on in this question which
is, and I completely agree, for a long time, I didn’t
want to use the word, lesbian. I would say I was
gay, which I think has to do with this
male gaze on sexuality. And I was trying to tuck
away and hide myself because it feels like when
you’re like, I’m a lesbian, it almost feels like you
feel this rustling of– what? And you’re like,
get away from me! I’m not in your fucking porn. – It’s like that
at the restaurant. – Yes, all those
waiters come back. And they’re like, hey. Yeah, lesbian is just
so like, exotic and ooh. – Just call yourself Carol. – I’m actually Carol. – Yeah, I’m Carol. [LAUGHTER] – I feel like, too, for
me, it’s like coming out was like asserting more
of my masculine energy. And so the word gay is more
masculine than lesbian to me. Do you know what I mean? Instead of me saying,
it’s like, I feel like I’m becoming more of a woman here. I want to be more feminine. I want to date. That was my process. – That’s very interesting. – I just identify
as single right now. [LAUGHS] – Put that out there. [LAUGHTER] – Hang loose. – That’s why I came on here. [LAUGHTER] – All right, next question. Hi, it’s Justin. – Love that. – Hi, Justin. – He, him, his closeted by. I think my friend was
hitting on me at space camp. There were– – Yeah, so cute. – There were four signs. One, he wanted to
compare heights by standing front to front. Two, he suggested that I take
the two inner foosball handles, while he took the
two outer ones. So he was basically spooning me. Three, he tried to grab my
hand when we were walking once. Four, he told me he could give
me computer science lessons. So was he hitting on me, or
just being really friendly? – I love this. – I love this. – Or not, kid. I’m assuming space kid. – I love this person– Justin. – Yeah, and I love
Justin’s friend. – Yeah, I need to know,
was he hitting on him? What do you guys think? – I feel like it sucks when you
feel like someone hit on you, and you tell your friend about
it, and they agree with you, and then nothing ever happens. But I would say those
are all physical cues. The foosball table, baby. That’s like– [INTERPOSING VOICES] – I would maybe, like– if I were– it’s Justin? – Yeah. – If I were in
Justin’s position, I would maybe try and
throw something back out, something back that’s similar. Not to be too schemy, but
there is maybe a goal here. [LAUGHS] – I think he should
take up the lesson. – It definitely sounds like
he’s interested in something. And responding to it
if that’s what you want might be a safe
bet, in my opinion. – Yeah. – Yeah, the computer one? – Yeah, computer
science lessons. – I think you should take them. – It’s a good skill,
no matter what. – It’s a win-win. – You’ll learn something. – Yeah, I agree. I’m excited. – I think whether he was
hitting on you or not, you learned something
about yourself that you liked that attention. So that’s going to go forward. – Or didn’t. – Or didn’t. – Oh, true. – Closeted bi, though,
it sounds like. But you’re right. – Yeah, I think if it’s
something that interests you, and you feel like
you can verbalize it, I also think have
a talk about it. I would have loved if
I was at space camp and was like, hey, so we
were at the foosball table. Did that mean anything
other than you liking the outside handles? I don’t know. I think that would be so
interesting to discuss. – I would love to be more like. – Me too. – I feel like, as
a queer woman, I think I hang out with
girls all the time. And I’m like, I don’t
know if you’re queer. We’re both are bisexual. I don’t know what this thing is. And then I’d like to be
able to talk about it. Because you want to be creepy. – Well, Justin,
I think you sound very understanding of yourself. – Yeah. – Intuitive. – Really breaking it down too. I identify with that
amount of precise work. We have time for one more. I am just going to pick. Here we go. I’d love to come into my own
and start feeling more sexy. However, it seems most
clothes, hairstyles, et cetera, are designed to either
make women look hot or make men look hot. So what are some tips
for non-binary people? What do I accentuate? What might it mean for
someone to like me if I’m hot? Of course, I know
most of all, it’s important to feel
confident and healthy. Just hoping for
some practical tips. Thank you, Ally. – Oh, man. – Yeah, take it away. – No, I’ll take the tips. It’s a hard one, but– – Earlier, you were joking
about Starbucks a la cart. We get to just
pick what we want. So I think that is the
fun of being non-binary. I feel like you can
look at it as kind of a burden like nothing
fits, but then you can also flip that narrative
on its head and, say actually, everything fits. Everything is non-binary
for taking away the binary. – I feel like something
that I still try and do is remind myself that if
I go down a certain road, it’s not permanent. Like with a certain clothing
option, or a haircut. I recently got my hair
cut, and I was like, oh, is it too short? I was like, it fucking grows. It’s going to be fine. And so, I think,
taking risks, you’ll figure out what it is that
makes you feel really good. And there will be
those days where you get dressed in the morning,
and you leave, and you’re like, this isn’t working. But then you have a lot
of new days ahead of you. Just keep trying. – I would say maybe
keep some- sort of– if this is dysphoria-centered,
dysphoria journal where you’re writing down
what makes you feel dysphoric, specifically. And then you can look back
and be like, oh, this has been bothering me for a while. For me, it was
definitely my chest. And I was like, I’ve
always heard about binders. Never really tried one, and
then I bought one online. And was like, does this work? And I was like, yes, it does. And just kind of
start chipping away if something’s popping up a lot. Address that– jackets, belts. – And there are people
out there that are 100% going to think you’re hot. There are people that will find
you really sexy and really hot, I promise. – I heard this guy once say,
everyone is someone’s fantasy. I’d love to think I’m hot. – Oh my gosh,
yeah, that’s great. – I’m going to go with
that all day long. – I feel like in terms
of coming on general, the way you dress is so– because when I first came
out, I was downplaying having boobs, and having a
butt, and everything because I was just like, well, lesbians
don’t like me because– and then it’s so
complicated to be like, no, I just need
to dress in what’s going to make me feel happy. – Yes, totally. – Lately, I’ve been
like, oh, I like what that person’s wearing. I’m going to buy that. Instead of being like,
I want to copy them. I’m like no, no,
no, that’s dope. I want that too. – I want that. Yeah, yeah, totally. – Marie Kondo your
clothes all the time. – Yeah, exactly. Go and say thank you to
each individual shirt, and figure out what to get
rid of, and then go buy more. – Go to a vintage store and
try on a bunch of stuff. – Oh, that’s a good idea. – Maybe grab one
or two things you didn’t think you would
like, and just try it. – Or that you didn’t you
shouldn’t be allowed to. There’s this whole thing
of like, OK, I shouldn’t wear that, or I don’t know,
just wear what you want to wear. – We talked about this a lot– thinking visibility. We have to look a certain
way to attract people. And I feel like that
goes out the window if you’re just able to be
more upfront, a la Justin. And I just say– – Just say what’s up. – –I’m into you. – And I think a lot of it
is also observation too. If the point is to
see what other people are thinking about it. Or maybe do what you
said, is try something you wouldn’t normally put on. And wear it in the world just
for a day or for two hours, and see how people
react to it, and see if you like that reaction. – Yes, absolutely. – And then take it
off immediately. [LAUGHTER] – And then take
it off immediately and hide it in a chest, and
get back to your circus job. Thank you so much, everybody. That is the show. As we’re leaving, where
can people find you should you wish to be found? What are you doing? Let’s plug it. – I use the Instagram
@AnnieParadis_. Yeah, hit me up. Not in a creepy way. And then I host a monthly
character show over at the Ruby. And it’s on the same
night as Gay’s Astrology. So if you’re in L.A,
come to my show. We’ll go dancing in Satellite. It’s a great time. – Cool, that does sound nice. – Also on the gram,
so @LizaStegall. I’m sure that’ll be
written somewhere. – Yeah, it will. Don’t worry. – I’ll gram it too– @DavidJosephCraig. And I just want to
plug it since we talked about conversion therapy. If you want to get
involved, some great places to get involved are
obviously the Trevor Project. They also are doing a
program called, 50 Bills 50 States, which I think is
still an active website too. The number, And that’s to actively
look for legal action in the states that don’t
have laws against conversion therapy. And also Born Perfect is a
beautiful place to go too. That’s a company that is
also on the front lines of ending conversion therapy. – Oh, nice. – That’s great. Thank you so much, you
guys, for being here. And thank you so
much for listening. I hope you have a great week.

12 thoughts on “Conversion Therapy

  1. ShellShock Ali Post author

    There should be a drop out show where ally finds a bf for Grant and Grant finds a gf for ally

  2. CH2 Post author

    Come hang with Ally on our Discord! Sign up for DROPOUT:

    Download the INTERNATIONAL app here:

  3. thebatmanover9000 Post author

    How would this work for an atheist? My guess is after I month the people trying to reconvert them would be atheist themselves.

  4. Cloud Angel Post author

    I would like to disagree with the "I already know" thing, specifically if you're coming as trans, it's great, because all trans people question whether they really are trans all the time, so the confirmation that even someone else thinks you're trans is great.

  5. N O Post author

    Hear me out, but I think that JFK was assassinated by NASA because he knew they were going to fake the moon landing.

  6. pianomist Post author

    This discussion on gender and sexuality identity makes me think about what I've not so recently come across. This may complicate things a bit more, but then it may help with identification. So, the acronym is GRSM (in a sense replacing LGBTQIA+, less letters and more inclusive) which stands for Gender Romance Sexuality Minorities. Romance is given an orientation in this sense. And, maybe some of you already have come across this already, but I'll explain anyway. So…

    -Gender is what gender you identify as such as cis man or trans woman, for example.

    -Sexuality is the same homosexual, bisexual, heterosexual, pansexual, etc.

    -Romance works in the same way as sexuality but putting romantic as the suffix instead of sexual, for example homoromantic, hetero romanic, bi romantic, etc.

    -Minorities works the same way in other contexts like racial minorities.
    So, for example, I identify as a cis-male (non-minority status), homoromantic, homosexual.
    Another person might identify as a cis-male, heteroromantic, pansexual or trans-man, biromantic, bisexual or non-binary, panromantic, asexual
    Of course, it can get a bit iffy when doing these combinations since romance and sexuality are based on gender identification… and some of these combinations may not make much sense, but can technically be possible such as someone who identifies as a cis-male who is heteroromantic homosexual. In fact, I have come across a heteroromantic cis-couple who both identify as homosexual – they don't have sex with each other but with others of their same gender (open-relationship), but love each other and committed to each other. Now, sexuality is very fluid for some and so this may not work for all. Some people identify as sexually fluid and maybe even romantically fluid. And, there could be a relationship orientation identifier as well like monogamous, polyamorous, open-relationship, etc. People's orientation is their own, for sure, but I like the idea adding a romantic orientation because that could explain certain people's behaviors like cis-males who are married (heteroromantic), but have sex with other males on the side (bisexual) – but they would say that they were still straight. This identification could work for them.
    Also, there are a couple of additional markers I've come across such as andro (male) and gyno (female) that could be used as prefixes in the romance and sexuality areas… for example, someone could be a androsexual (sexually attracted to people, regardless of sex, who present themselves as what society considers "male") or someone could be gynoromantic (romantically attracted to someone, regardless of sex, who presents themselves as what society considers "female")… and other terms like androgyno-sexual / androgyno-romantic may apply… I don't know what non-binary could be, but I'm sure it could be included.
    Yes, this gets me a bit confused as well just thinking about all the possibilities and yeah, there could be holes poked into this, but it's just something fun to think about. I find it interesting anyway. There are videos that talk about this here on YouTube. I first came about it by watching Mr. Atheist. You could just probably type in his channel name and GRSM to find those videos. He talks about his own identification as cis-male gynoromantic pansexual (with exceptions that you'll have to find out by watching him talk about it).
    Anyway, thought I would throw this into the mix. Have fun and keep on the discussions!

  7. forrester Post author

    i find that with bisexuality and being an enby (both of which i am) and being trans in general is there comes a point where you have to come out to other queer people, and at times it can feel like you have as much a chance of rejection from them as from cishet people. in my experience it can feel like some of us are taken less seriously than others, and while like yeah a load of us (esp teens, speaking as a teen) are legitimately pretty annoying, that correlation between identity and credibility and almost worth in a sense is really interesting and also very isolating and shouldn't be taken for granted. i'm certainly not the only one who's said it but some queer people, or people of any minority, tend to operate under the idea that they have nothing else to learn about other groups or at least very little to learn, by virtue of also being a minority. anyway, i'm only up to 10:31 so if you've already talked about this my bad lmao

  8. James Kindrick Post author

    I think I might come out to either my parents or Facebook soon. Maybe, Idk.

    I'm friends with my dad on Facebook, but he absolutely never uses it, he doesn't even have a profile pic on it. I haven't been friends with my mom on Facebook for a while, because she keeps reverting to generic Republican rhetoric on most issues with hardly an individual thought. So the only people that will immediately see it on Facebook would be my sisters, other friends, and more distant family.

    As for my parents in person, my mom is the type of person who's somewhat nurturing, I'm her favorite child and she's very vocal about it, but she's somewhat irrational in her thought processes and tends to argue a lot. Whereas my dad is a lot like me in that he's very calm, analytical, we tend to have long in-depth conversations about a wide variety of subjects so long as my mom's not involved, and he only seems to get upset when either someone's arguing with my mom or when someone at work screwed up by failing to follow established procedure. I might come out to him first, maybe early in the morning while he's getting ready for work and my mom's not awake yet.

  9. jonathan wilcox Post author

    Survival mode, also I do pottery.

  10. Paul Beck Post author

    these need to be longer, im hooked. im 30 and since watching ive come out as Bisexual to 5 close people, its a super power

  11. Tara N Post author

    I’m 13 and in the closet, this shit is like the Bible


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